OOC and IC: Friday Ethics Debate - Tara, Shep, Beka, Cameron, and Rory

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

For convenience, I'm creating this post for us to OOC and IC hash out the debate stuff.

I'll place a link to either the Ethics classroom or Study Hall or the Perk or something for the IC stuff once we get going, to provide an IC chrono context for the discussions.

Tara-mun, you're included, in case we have OOC questions, but more until we get the sitch with Shep's ankle and his replacement, if any, straightened out.

I'll be AFK for an hour or so. Otherwise, jump on in. And whomever gets assigned in Shep's place - jump on in. I'll change the subject line to include you as soon as I know who you are. :D

As a reminder, this is the assignment:

First speaker, Affirmative - defines the key words, outlines the arguments his or her team will be making, and begins to address them.
First speaker, Opposition - briefly rebuts (disagrees with) the points 1A made, outlines their own team's arguments, begins to address them.
Second speaker, Affirmative - briefly rebuts 1O, gives the body of the team's argument.
Second speaker, Opposition - briefly rebuts 2A, gives the body of the team's argument.
Third speaker, Affirmative - rebuts all the arguments of the Opposition, in detail. May add one new argument if appropriate.
Third speaker, Opposition - rebuts all the arguments of the Affirmative, in detail. May not add any new points.

Comments

OOC Hash out

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

OOC discussion here.

Re: OOC Hash out

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Sorry, what's happening with Shep's ankle? Do we actually need a replacement?

Re: OOC Hash out

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

OK. IC - Shep's at the clinic needing maybe, to be hospitalized. But he'll be contacting you about that.

OOC - Shep's mun is going to be mostly AFK this weekend. She'll be contacting you about it too.

In sum, Cam-mun, Shep-mun, and I have talked and we're concerned NPCing Shep for the debate may not be the best way to handle it. I just threw this up here early so I could go eat.

I'm sure Shep-mun will fill you in IC and OOC.

Re: OOC Hash out

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Okay. I'll go back over the class discussion and pick someone else out to 'volunteer', pending Shep-mun's decision.

Re: OOC Hash out

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

Have we heard from her?

Re: OOC Hash out

[brambless.livejournal.com]

I haven't, no.

Re: OOC Hash out

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

Hm. She told us both she'd talk to you. Must've gotten hung up with packing and such.

Re: OOC Hash out

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Two options: if Shep goes first speaker affirmative, the speech can be entirely written beforehand, and Shep-mun doesn't actually need to be there. Second option: I beg another student to take up the position (and there's really nothing around here that doesn't sound smutty, is there?) at the last moment.

Re: OOC Hash out

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

Tomorrow's Thursday. We planned for Shep-mun to do the first part, so let's see what comes up then? Maybe line someone up just in case? (and yes, so yes, with the smuttiness)

While we're at it, do you have a definition of murder you want us to use or are we free to define at will?

Re: OOC Hash out

[brambless.livejournal.com]

You define it however you want - it's your debate. The only rule about definitions is that you can't define the other team out of the debate. You have to give them something to argue, so no truisms.

IC Hash Out

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

IC Hash out here, continued from Beka and Cameron's conversation in Study Hall:

Beka tentatively approaches Cameron. "Hey. Sorry about the phone message. Bad night."

"Hey," Cameron smiles at Beka. "Sorry to hear. You okay?"

Beka smiles back wearily. "Me? Fine. Just don't ask about... my roommates, my new emodemon pal, the Student Council President, or any teachers who might regularly have sex." When she pauses for breath, she notices Cam seems cheerful. "You look happy."

"Oh ouch. I won't then." Cameron grimaces, but smiles again at her last remark. "That's because I am. Do you want to wait until Sheppard shows up or do you want to start already?"

"Thanks." She smiles, and it's clear she means it. "I'm glad. Let's just get started. He's been scarce since the jogging accident."

Cameron blinked. "Jogging accident? He said he was fine."

"Last I saw him, which was...yesterday, I think...no, the day before, his ankle looked like a tree trunk."

"Oh man, I knew we should have taken him to the clinic," Cameron sighs as he takes out a notepad.

"He's stubborn like that. Not your fault." Beka rolls her head on her shoulders and pulls out her Flexis, which holds the assignment, and a notepad. "How'd you want to start?"

"I'm not surprised." Cameron sighs and looks over his notes. "Divide rolls and make sure we have some clear arguments that we all agree upon. The rest will be improvisation depending on what the other team says."

"Right. Well, if we don't know what Shep's going to be capable of, let's give him the smallest role and the one that can be prepared most in advance. No?" She taps a pen against her lips. "Seems like the critical thing is controlling the terms of the debate. They're going to want 'murder' defined broadly. It helps our argument if we keep it narrow."

Cameron nods in agreement. "We definitely need to set apart the difference between murder and killing that happens in self defence or accidental to begin with. That leaves us with planned murder and passion crime and I don't think it's too hard to say those should never be allowed."

Beka considers this. "I think we should be even more narrow, if we can. Maybe we should require premeditation for it to be murder? Passion crimes are never 'right' but there are justifications in some legal systems. Mine, for example."

"There are justifications, but it's still wrong to have an impulse to kill. It's poor judgement if you let your anger get away like that." Cameron frowned. "I don't think you can simply wipe this sort of crime out of the definition because it's harder to defend."

"Maybe we should ask Ta-- Professor Maclay about the rules for that? I'm not sure what we can do. A juridical definition of murder is probably a good place to start. We can always rule stuff out later if she says it's OK." Beka chews her lip. "Which piece of this do you want to take?"

"I think we should just do what the instructions say. I'm sure she expects us to be able to handle this ourselves. I like your idea of starting with the juridical definition. Second or third speaker is fine by me."

Beka nods. "OK. If I had to guess the other side's line up, Angelus will want to go last. Parker will want to go ... first, probably, to attack our definitions. And Phoebe in the middle. I'm good either second or third. Maybe we'll get a natural sense of flow as we're working."

Cameron nods. "Sounds good to me."

Shep limps in very slowly. "Sorry I'm running late. I'm uh... not moving so well. Where are we?"

Cameron frowns as he sees Shep limping. "Yo. You alright? I thought you said it was fine."

"Hey, you. You got worse. You should...get that taken care of." Beka looks concerned.

Re: IC Hash Out

[cameronmitchell.livejournal.com]

"Okay, I looked up the definition in just an ordinary dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=murder) and even that is already enough to back us up:

murder : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Do we want a more tightly sealed definition or one that leaves more room for the other team to debate?"

Re: IC Hash Out

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

"Unlawful. That's going to need a little bit of framing. Because the laws where I'm from are different than here. And Angelus will take a broad view - with all those centuries to draw from. We're going to want to specify what system of laws." Beka pursed her lips thoughtfully.

"And..." Here she winced painfully thinking of her recent stint in detention. "Do we want to go with a definition that basically says it's only murder if you get caught? Might be good to decide what incidents we think are murder and adjust the definition?"

Re: IC Hash Out

[cameronmitchell.livejournal.com]

"I don't know why you think it's only when you get caught. Unlawful applies whether you get caught or not. I thin specifying a law is a bad idea as it gives you a lot of cultures where it doesn't apply to. Leaving it exactly like this you specify that you respect every culture's law."

Re: IC Hash Out

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

"Maybe I'm reading that different. I thought a crime meant you actually got caught? If not, OK. Seems like we don't want to give them too many openings." She shrugged. "I don't know a lot about the laws now. A lot of stuff that passes as self-defense or justifiable killing where I'm from would probably be considered murder here.

"Say we go with this definition, for now. Why is murder wrong?"

Re: IC Hash Out

[cameronmitchell.livejournal.com]

"No, crime is a general action that you do that is wrong. It doesn't matter if you get caught or not." He frowns. "Taking another life is taboo in pretty much every culture. It's even considered a sin."

Re: IC Hash Out

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

"Some groups consider it a sin where I'm from. The Nietzscheans see it as honorable and probably don't consider their men men until they've claimed a life. Others see it as a necessity of survival..." Beka frowned too. I'm not a murderer.

Re: IC Hash Out

[cameronmitchell.livejournal.com]

"In which case neither actions are actually against the law," Cameron rebutted. "Necessity of survival falls under self defence, no?"

Re: IC Hash Out

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

Beka flips through a text she's uploaded to her Flexis. "Self-defense is only a defense under law when there's an imminent danger. I guess..." Her mind turns over a series of incidents. "I guess that covers most of the things I could think of that I wouldn't consider murder."

She shrugs. "I'm OK with that definition or one like it. I think it's broad, but it'll make for a good debate which we're so going to lose because OMG it's Thursday afternoon!. I think we should ask them to stipulate that state-sponsored assassination is not the same thing as murder."

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"Hi Beka, Cameron - I just got your voicemail."

Tara comes in and slumps into one of the chairs.

"I've sent an email offering extra credit to anyone who leaps in at the last minute. If no-one volunteers - which is entirely possible - you have two choices. You can go into the debate with just two speakers, or one of you can speak twice. Third speaker doesn't really prepare an argument, they just rebut everything the other team has said, so a first speaker/third speaker double up would be acceptable."

She shrugs apologetically. "Things like this happen in group work. I can only promise the two of you won't be penalised for it, regardless of the outcome of the debate itself."

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

"Hey Prof. Thanks for coming by personally." Beka offers a friendly smile. "We've got some good work done now. It'd be good to have another mind, but if not..." Her gaze takes in Cam. "We can do it."

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"I know you can. I have every faith in the both of you. Would you like me to stick around for a while, or should I leave you to it?"

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

"Thanks, Tara. I think we'll be OK. Looks like Rory took you up on the offer, too. Which is fantastic."

Beka jerked her chin up, sort of a nod and a bit of 'it's OK if you say no'. "We still on for breakfast tomorrow?"

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Tara grins. "I wouldn't miss it."

She stands, brushing her skirts into neat folds. "Give me a call if you have any questions. And Rory? Thank you so much for stepping in at the last minute."

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

"See you then."